THE HON TANYA PLIBERSEK MP
MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
DRIVE WITH CHRIS O’KEEFE
FRIDAY, 9 AUGUST 2024
SUBJECTS: INFLATION, CHILDCARE WAGE SUBSIDIES AND FLEXIBLE WORKING ARRANGEMENTS.
CHRIS O'KEEFE, HOST: Well, Tanya Plibersek is the member for Sydney and the Minister for the Environment and the Water, and Water. She's on the line now. Minister, thank you for your time.
TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Always great to talk to you.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: What's your view on Jim Chalmers v. Michele Bullock, is it your fault? Are you spending too much money? Why inflation hasn't come down as we expected.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I think the Reserve Bank Governor's also said that the fact that we've had two back-to-back surpluses for the first time in almost two decades has actually taken pressure off interest rates. We've been very careful not to spend money in a way that contributes to inflation. We're helping households with the cost of living, things like the electricity bill relief is absolutely deliberately designed to bring down inflation. And we're not saying, for a second, job done and we're happy with the inflation rate where it is. Of course, we want to see inflation falling further into that target band at the RBA has set. But don't forget, we've got about half the inflation rate that we inherited on coming to government. So, it's heading in the right direction. It's definitely not job done. We're not saying that, but it's heading the right direction.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: You didn't really inherit it. I'm not going to say it's your fault. I think it's, when people say ‘Albo-flation' and all the rest of it, I think that's spurious. This is a, this is a global phenomenon and Australia couldn't expect to be immune from it. But, but what I would say it hasn't come down anywhere near as fast in Australia as it has in other parts of the world. Canada, 2.7 per cent inflation, 3.3 in New Zealand, 3 per cent in the United States. And we’re just a tick under four. It's taking a long time here, why?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, ours is peaking lower and later and there's all sorts of global reasons, as you say. And I suppose, Chris, at the end of the day, you know, people are saying it's because we're paying people too much or it's because of the tax cuts in the economy. Well, I'm not going to apologise for giving every Australian taxpayer a tax cut, and I'm not going to apologise that aged care workers and childcare workers, who do some of the most responsible, difficult work in our community and everybody acknowledges have been underpaid, that they're getting a pay increase.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: Understood. But it's futile if inflation eats it up right? If you can't get inflation down, you may as well just be, you may as well just be putting it straight into the incinerator, those pay rises.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, and that's why we're so focused on continuing to bring it down. That's why we made sure that we had two back-to-back surpluses. Yeah, and it's why we've designed the response to inflation in the way that we have. I think it's clear that the Reserve Bank Governor in the past has said that fiscal policy, the way we're running the budget, is actually helping with inflation because of the back-to-back surpluses that we've had.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: I just don't understand this argument, Minister Plibersek, because 2 per cent inflation is in the UK, 3.3 per cent in New Zealand. I'll read these again. Canada, 2.7, 3 per cent inflation in the United States. We're still almost at four. Why is it taking so long here?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, as you said at the beginning, we've got a lot of international factors at work here –
CHRIS O'KEEFE: - So do all those countries!
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: - and they had much higher inflation than us. They peaked earlier and they're heading down. We've peaked later and we're heading down, and I'm not trying to for a second say it's all fine, nothing to see here. I don't say that for a second. I know that people are doing it tough and that's why we're trying to give every household assistance through the tax bill, the tax relief that every single taxpayer is getting. And it's why we're very happy to see wages going up. In fact, the minimum wage has increased by about $7,000 a year since we came to government, for those 2.6 million workers that rely on it, like, of course that makes a difference. And we're happy to see that. We're happy to see those wages increase.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: Only in a low inflationary environment. With inflation high, it just eats it all up, unfortunately. But Minister Plibersek, let's move on. I want to talk about the childcare wage subsidies. Are you concerned that you said, I know you had the principle, the principle and the precedent was set with aged care, and I don't think anyone's going to begrudge childcare workers and aged care workers getting a pay rise. What they don't probably understand is why the government, the taxpayer, has to subsidise those wages.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, the taxpayers are already contributing a huge amount to the running of the aged care system and the childcare system. It's a bit different to your average sandwich shop. You know, you don't rely on taxpayers to pay a subsidy for most businesses. But the Commonwealth government is already a very large contributor to the cost of childcare and aged care through the subsidies that we support families with. And what we've said in the childcare sector is that as well as having these wage increases for people who work in the sector, we want to see aged, sorry, childcare prices not going through the roof. So, we've put a cap on the amount that childcare prices can rise. So, if taxpayers are providing a subsidy, we need to make sure that it's making childcare more affordable for parents, and actually that that money is flowing through the childcare wages, not just profits for the people who operate these centres.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: I understand that, but you say that you know, this is because oh, well, the taxpayer already subsidises aged care and childcare through subsidies. However, the taxpayer, you know, we spend a fortune on schools and a fortune on hospitals and we're not talking about wage subsidies for teachers, are we?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, we already pay the wages of teachers. Who pays them other than taxpayers? State and Commonwealth governments -
CHRIS O'KEEFE: - No, well not independent schools.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, we are huge funders of independent schools -
CHRIS O'KEEFE: I know but the taxpayers don't subsidise a teacher's wages at, say, St Joseph's at Hunters Hill.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, of course they do. What do you think the funding goes to?
CHRIS O'KEEFE: What do the school fees do?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: The school fees are a small proportion of what schools spend, and if you look at the school funding formulas, the Commonwealth government is particularly the major funder of non-government schools, Catholic systemic schools and independent schools. Taxpayers are very much on the hook for teachers’ wages. We pay nurses wages, doctors in public hospitals, we pay the wages of a lot of people who work in these care industries. I guess the difference with aged care and childcare is the way the subsidies flow is kind of different. You know, people feel, feel it when they go to the childcare centre every week and they're handing over the childcare fees because for most families it's actually the second biggest expense after their rental mortgage. They're really feeling the cost of childcare. But we are, as taxpayers, all contributing to that cost, and there's a reason for that. The reason for that is it's good for kids, it’s also really important for our economy. We're now in an economy where we rely on the work of mothers even when their children are quite young. The skills they bring, the labour they put into the economy is part of our national prosperity. So, the contribution we make as taxpayers gets a repayment because those mums are out at work paying their taxes and contributing to our prosperity as a nation.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: Good segue. I want to talk about working from home. I don't know if you caught this. I don't know if you caught this this week. I've been quite vocal about it. I reckon this is a bad idea for the Minn’s government, telling people, no, no, no, you've all got to come back into the office. Do you think that unfairly targets working mums?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, I think with all of these things, you just need a bit of balance and common sense right? I think the revolution in working from home has been fantastic for families. I think it's taken a lot of pressure off a lot of families, particularly those with a long commute, and I know that there's a lot of parents who wouldn't give it up for anything. In fact, in lots of surveys, people are saying, I'd rather have more flexibility than more money. On the other hand, I represent an inner-city electorate. I don't want it to be a ghost town. I like it when there's people going to the local shops and cafes and restaurants after work. So, it's a bit of balance, isn't it? You know, in your own life, working from home can be really good if you've got a project where you need quiet and concentration, but actually catching up with your colleagues sometimes face to face can be really good for team building and, you know, the practical, some of the sort of projects that you need to do.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: Sure. On the working front, with the working mothers’ argument, though, because there was a little bit of talk out of the Minn’s Government that, oh, well, working from home doesn't work as well because women just end up doing housework when at home. Now, I thought that was a bit condescending and a bit patronising, to be honest. Isn't it just about being flexible rather than a decree from the Premier that everyone's got to get back into the office?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, and I think really, if you look beyond the headlines, I do think that's pretty much what the state government's saying. They're saying, we'd like to see more people in the office a bit more of the time, but we're not going to close off options for working from home. And the truth is, we're in a real kind of battle for talent at the moment. With unemployment rates as low as they are, there's a lot of employers who are struggling to find staff with the skills they need. I think a lot of employees who are able to say, okay, I'll come and work with you, but this is the sort of flexibility I'd like to see.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: And also, the truth is, especially in Sydney, Minister Plibersek, you need two incomes to live. You need two incomes to be able to afford a house.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You do. Yeah, you do need two incomes to afford a house. But I think if you're talking about Sydney, the other real true thing here is that it's a big city and people are commuting long distances and that's a lot of hours. I mean, it's really frustrating to feel like you're wasting that time when you could be with your kids or you could be doing really productive work. Instead, you're sitting on the train or you're sitting in traffic. So, I think, actually, it's been great for employers, it's been great for families. I think it's been terrific to see a lot of jobs that have provided that sort of flexibility. We definitely don't want to throw the, as they say, throw the baby out with the bathwater, but a little bit of balance and a little bit of common sense, I think, goes a long way in these situations.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: Thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. As always, enjoy your weekend.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You too, always a pleasure.
CHRIS O'KEEFE: That's Federal Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek.
END
