THE HON TANYA PLIBERSEK MP
MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
AM AGENDA WITH LAURA JAYES
THURSDAY 15 AUGUST 2024
SUBJECTS: Zali Steggall; Middle East Conflict.
LAURA JAYES, HOST: Let's go live now to the Environment Minister, Tanya Plibersek. Thanks so much for your time. You were in the chamber. You moved to go and sit behind Zali after that comment, I believe. Why was that?
TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Well, it was because she was just being shouted at so much by the Liberals and Nationals. We could barely hear her. There was just a wall of noise being directed at her and she was standing there alone speaking. I mean, if you're talking about unparliamentary behaviour, the wall of noise and interjection she was facing from the Liberals and Nationals was really extraordinary. And I don't think anybody should face that sort of behaviour in a workplace.
LAURA JAYES: Was the wall of noise a reaction to her saying they were racists?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No, no. It was from the moment I entered the chamber and I noticed Zali Steggall speaking. There were constant, loud, disruptive interjections. But I think, Laura -
LAURA JAYES: What were the comments? Because we often don't pick up what the mics say.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah. No, you don't pick it up.
LAURA JAYES: What were the comments from the Liberals and the Nationals?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No, look, it was actually so loud and constant that it was pretty hard to pick out individual comments or even who was making them. It was really a wall of noise. But can we go, I think, to the substantive issue here? I think what Peter Dutton was doing in the parliament was once again seeking to win votes by frightening and dividing Australians. So, you're looking at the substantive issue. There is a humanitarian catastrophe happening in Gaza. We have, as Australians, enormous sympathy for what Israel experienced with the Hamas attack. We've got enormous sympathy for the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza, where most of 40,000 people are now estimated to have died. 16,000 of those who have died are children. Most Australians want to see ceasefire, hostage return, humanitarian assistance. In some cases, some people will apply to come to Australia. All of the processes that we go through are the same processes that existed when Peter Dutton was the Minister responsible. So, if he's saying that the rules are wrong, they are his rules. If he's saying that the ASIO Director is not competent to decide whether people are safe to come to Australia, it's the ASIO Director that was in that position when Peter Dutton was the Minister. The same person we reappointed. He never objected to the reappointment. So, the same rules, the same people making the assessments. What's changed? What's changed in Peter Dutton's view? These are the same rules that applied to people coming from Afghanistan, they are the same rules that apply to people coming from Ukraine.
LAURA JAYES: This conflict is a little different. And if I can offer what the Liberals are putting forward in this case, they're saying there needs to be third country in-person checks. Given this conflict, it's very hard to do that. And their questions are of the people that have been accepted to Australia, were those in-person check, third country checks conducted and all approved by ASIO.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: So, the ASIO checks that have always applied have applied to every visa that's been issued. So, people coming in and checked against a list that's updated every 24 hours to make sure that they're not on any watch list. And Laura, truly, about 70% of the visas have been rejected because we can't be certain of some of the information. There is a very high refusal rate. There is no guaranteed entry into Australia. About 3000 visas have been granted. About 7000 have been rejected.
LAURA JAYES: If I can ask you on those numbers, on what basis were those 7000 rejected and on what basis?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I can't tell you that. Okay.
LAURA JAYES: You're not the Minister in charge.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Information that we can't verify. I'm not the Minister in charge, but it does show those numbers show you that there is a high bar to be met. You really have to question why Peter Dutton is saying that the rules that applied under him and the people who were making the decisions when he was the Minister are somehow now inappropriate or incompetent to make the decisions. The only conclusion you can draw is he is seeking to weaponise this issue as a way of frightening and dividing Australians as a way of winning votes. And I really think that is beneath any person who wants to lead Australia.
LAURA JAYES: But how would he win Australian votes? Do you think this is something that. I mean, what would be the political vote winning benefit here, though?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, the sad fact is that engendering fear in the Australian community is a tactic and a tool that is not beyond Peter Dutton. I think it's very clear that he wants to frighten Australians into believing that he is somehow a tough man that can keep them safe. It's all about the politics and it's a terrible thing to seek to frighten and divide Australians for such reasons.
LAURA JAYES: If I can put to you the difference between what happened in Afghanistan and what's happening in now. As this war in Gaza drags, it is becoming more complex. Identifying Hamas sympathisers and those just desperate to live and survive in Gaza. There is a very grey area there. So, is this the safety and the security vetting in this war, is that more difficult than it has been for our security agencies in previous conflicts that you reference?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I'm sure there are difficulties and I'm sure one of the reasons that the refusal rate is as high as it is, is because those difficulties exist. But I would also say that the best thing that we can do as a nation is do our bit as part of the international community to urge immediate ceasefire, as we've been doing for nine months, to insist on hostage returns and greater humanitarian aid so people can stay safely at home. Most people who flee their homeland as refugees don't want to flee. They want to be safe at home. And so, yes, we need to make sure that as we issue any visas to Australia, that Australians are kept safe, that proper checks are done. But the other thing that we are doing, as the government is putting every effort into supporting ceasefire, because it is only when Israelis and Palestinians can live safely side by side that we will see peace, real peace, in the Middle east.
LAURA JAYES: One final question on this. Whilst the Rafah border is closed and no one can get out of Gaza, is there an opportunity here to look at our vetting procedure? And despite you saying that they've been in place for quite some time, they've worked, ASIO says that it's the right thing to do. Is there an opportunity to relook at it and see if there's anything more that can be done to make sure, you know, that risk is completely eliminated as much as possible?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Oh, look, I'm sure that Tony Burke, as the Immigration Minister, will be absolutely on top of all of the measures that he needs to take to keep Australians safe.
LAURA JAYES: Tanya Plibersek, thanks so much for your time.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Thanks, Laura.
END
