SUBJECTS: COP27, THE PACIFIC, THE MURRAY-DARLING BASIN PLAN

KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Thank you. And let's go live now to Sydney and bring in the environment and water Minister Tanya Plibersek. Tanya Plibersek, thanks for your time. We've seen Joe Biden lock in his meeting with the Chinese President, where the government is hopeful of a meeting between Prime Minister Albanese and Xi. Is it encouraging at the very least because it reopens cooperation potentially on issues like climate and the environment?

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Well, issues like climate change are obviously too big for any one country to solve on their own. We know that China emits about a third of the world's greenhouse gases, and so we do need to work in a way that brings these very large emitters into the tent. If China and the US can have constructive talks about climate change, that's good, that's good for everybody. In the past, even when there has been, at various times different issues, where the US and China have disagreed, they have managed to keep a conversation going about climate change. And if we can get that back on track, that's great.

GILBERT: It seems the government, though, is still being very pragmatic in its view towards China. A major speech by Penny Wong today on foreign policy, the Whitlam Oration, where she says she basically chides those that appear to be stuck in the past on China. She says "the China of today is not the same as the China of the 1970s or even the 2000s. Some may prefer to pretend otherwise, but President Xi himself has made that clear. " So is this the way the government is taking on the relationship with China? Trying to extend the olive branch with one hand, but realist with the other?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I think it's completely fair enough comment from Penny to say that China, even in its own words, in its own description of its role in the world, has certainly changed. We will always raise issues with China that are in Australia's national interests, but it is wherever we can, it is in our interests for China to be part of the international community. And on issues like the Pacific and climate change, if we can work cooperatively, of course, that's in everybody's interest.

GILBERT: The climate talks continue in Egypt. Joe Biden urged world leaders to do more. Our leader is not there. Should he have gone?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, our leader has gone straight from Parliament to the G20, ASEAN and the East Asia Summit. So, he is engaging with international leaders at the highest level on issues including climate change, but with a particular focus on our region. It is important for Australia to have a good close relationship with the ASEAN nations. This is an opportunity for the Prime Minister to speak directly with a number of ASEAN leaders. And we know that it's very likely that the Prime Minister will meet with Joe Biden and other leaders from around the world as part of this summit season too. We're very well represented in Egypt by Chris Bowen, the Climate Change and Energy Minister by Pat Conroy and Jenny McAllister with their roles. We've got a climate change ambassador there as well. I think Australia will be very well represented.

GILBERT: There's a huge focus from our delegation from Pat Conroy through now, it seems, from Chris Bowen as well, on the Pacific and what we will do and how it relates to the Pacific. Is there a strategic sort of overlay to this, given China's recent influence and rising influence in that region?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, Labor has always been committed to being a good friend and neighbour in the Pacific and we were very critical when the previous government cut aid funding to the Pacific. We said at that time that it was shortsighted, it was the wrong thing to do, it was the wrong thing to do because where we have an opportunity to help our neighbours, we should. But also, I said, many others said at the time that this would create a strategic vacuum and in fact, that's exactly what happened. So, we've been scrambling since then to reassure our Pacific neighbours that they can rely on Australia as a good partner. It's one of the reasons that we want to cohost COP31 with the Pacific community to show that we can cooperate on issues around climate change. But we have other really fantastic opportunities for cooperation as well. Australia has always been a good defence partner in the Pacific. We've worked with Pacific nations, for example, to help them protect and manage their fisheries, such an important source of income for Pacific nations. But there is a real opportunity for us to rebuild the relationships that have been allowed, I think, to languish a little under the previous government when it comes to the Pacific.

GILBERT: Would you like to see our government commit to a loss and damage fund for developing countries already battling the effects of climate change?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You know, there's a lot of nonsense being talked by Peter Dutton and others in the Liberal and National Parties about this. At the moment, what's being proposed is that a discussion of loss and damages should be allowed to proceed at this conference of the parties in Egypt. We should be allowed to talk about whether such a thing should happen and if so, what it should look like. Of course, Australia supports having a discussion about how we help countries that have been really badly impacted by climate change cope with those impacts. Nobody's talking about committing money at this meeting. That might be a discussion for future meetings.

I'd also say that we've substantially increased our aid budget at $1.2 billion extra commitment to official development assistance in coming years. A lot of that money will be to do exactly this, to help being so badly affected by climate change to cope with those impacts. I've travelled to Pacific nations where you see villages that were once upon a time, well back from the shore of an island, are actually - have been literally washed into the sea. You see countries where the salinity in the freshwater table that they were relying on for drinking water and for farming purposes, the salinity is crept in to that fresh water, affecting drinking and crops and other freshwater uses. I mean, you cannot understand what an existential threat this is to many Pacific nations until you've seen it first hand. And it is no wonder to me that our neighbours are saying, we want to have a discussion about how the world can help us cope. We stand ready to do that. Australia has one thing we announced just a couple of days ago at the COP meeting was that Australia would sign up to the International Mangrove Alliance for Climate. This is something that the UAE and Indonesia have been pursuing to suggest that we should increase global coverage of mangroves by 20% by the year 2030. Now, that's an amazing nature-based way to deal with climate change. It stops those storm surges, it protects coastlines. But mangrove forests suck carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere at least five times more effectively than terrestrial forests. So we can have a really good nature-based solution that provides habitat for birds and fish and helps replenish fisheries stocks at the same time as reducing carbon dioxide. In Australia, we have about seven.

GILBERT: Let me ask you.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Can I just tell you, this is really good fact?

GILBERT: No, it's important.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: About 4 million cars worth of pollution sucked out of the atmosphere by our mangroves and seagrass. It's great.

GILBERT: Yeah, it certainly has that much. As you said, it's a bigger lung, so to speak, and even forests. But I want to ask you, I've got to get to Murray-Darling because you've said you've had a number of unsolicited approaches from farmers wanting to sell back licences, water licences, to the Commonwealth. How much are we talking about?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, we're looking at those proposals at the moment and we'll go through a very methodical approach where we'll look at people who have come to us unsolicited. We'll also talk to irrigators more generally. If there are unproductive areas of irrigation networks that irrigators want to close down or retire, we'll look at proposals like that. It is really important that buybacks are on the table. We'll continue to look at other infrastructure projects to reduce demand on water across the Murray Darling Basin. It seems kind of weird to be talking about this now when so many parts of eastern Australia are still literally underwater, still flooding. But we know that we need to get this right now because implementing these changes will take years and we know Australia will have another drought cycle in the future. So we're talking to farmers, we're talking to irrigators, we're talking to local government -

GILBERT: What do you say to the farm community who are concerned about that, though? You would concede a lot of farm communities concerned about you undertaking water buybacks. In fact, Perin Davey, the Shadow Minister, said, "make no mistake, this 46 gigawatts that was being discussed last week, it will hurt." What do you say to them?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You know, I always think it's extraordinary that the National Party think it's fine for farmers to sell their water to big State-owned enterprises from overseas, to the Canadian Teachers Pension Fund, to anybody overseas but their own farmers aren't allowed to sell their water back to the Australian government to be used for the environment to benefit all Australians. We know that the environmental water that was released during the end of the last drought actually literally saved towns. There were towns that saw dry riverbeds for two years and then there'd be a flush of water flowing through that town. I can't tell you what a difference it makes to the mood of the town, the economy of the town, people's ability to cope during the worst of the droughts. If we are going to be able to do that in the future when there are droughts, then we need to achieve the targets set out in the Murray-Darling Basin Plan.

The liberals and the nationals say they support the Murray-Darling Basin Plan, but if you say we want to do water efficiency measures on farms, they say, no, no, I can't do that. We want to do water efficiency measures off farms, I can't do that. We want to buy back water. Oh, and I can't do that. The proof is in the pudding. In nine years of 450 gigalitres of additional environmental water that the liberals and nationals were supposed to achieve, they achieved two gigalitres, two gigawatts out of 450. The proof of their commitment to the Murray-Darling Basement Plan is in those numbers. Yes, I will keep all of these options on the table. I will deliver on the Murray-Darling Basin Plan because we have to.

GILBERT: Just quickly, Bob Brown, the former Greens leader, had a red-hot crack at you this week for not visiting the Tarkine Rainforest, the proposed site of a tailings dam. In fact, you took a photo of you eating and having dinner with union people and miners instead of him. What do you say to him?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, when he took that photo, I'd already invited him to a meeting the following day. In the afternoon, I'd invited him, I don't know, a week before. And then, yeah, I did want to visit the site of the tailings dam, but his organisation blockaded the road and I couldn't safely ask public servants to come with me through a blockade in the middle of the forest. So I'm not really sure what Brown thought he was achieving by pretending not to have a meeting set with me and blockading the road that led to the site he pretended he wanted me to see. I don't know, you'd have to ask.

GILBERT: Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek. Thanks. Talk to you soon.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Thank you.