THE HON TANYA PLIBERSEK MP
MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
SUNRISE
MONDAY, 5 AUGUST 2024
SUBJECTS: NUCLEAR ENERGY, RENEWABLE ENERGY
NATALIE BARR, HOST: Well, how much are you paying for your power bill. What if that cost was slashed in half? A new analysis shows that could be a reality under nuclear power. In countries where it is powering the majority of the grid, households are paying less than half of what Aussies are currently paying.
One example cited is France where families are paying $49 per megawatt hour compared to $105 down under. For their take, let's bring in Environment Minister, Tanya Plibersek, and Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce. Good morning to you.
BARNABY JOYCE: Good morning.
TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Good morning.
BARR: Tanya, the big issue your party repeats of course is the cost and lengthy build time for nuclear, but the Government says it's also focused of course on building a long‑lasting and sustainable future.
Is it worth putting this on the table and discussing it?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, we've got costs of nuclear energy in Australia from the GenCost report that the CSIRO has developed with the Australian Energy Market Operator, and that says that if you're going to build nuclear in Australia it would be ‑ it would end up costing about $382 megawatt hour. So much, much more than the figure that's cited today, and much, much more than we're paying for renewable energy.
And one of the big problems, Nat, is people need help with their energy bills today. That's why we've got the $300 energy bill rebate for households, $325 for small businesses. They don't need it in 20 years' time. The best-case scenario –
BARR: Well, they kind of do, I think people want –
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: – is if we started building a –
BARR: People want, no, sorry, but –
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, if they started building a reactor today, it would be 10 or 15 or 20 years before it was built. And if you started building that reactor today, what you'd end up doing is making it less attractive to build renewable energy, which can be powering homes tomorrow.
BARR: But we don't want to just forget about our kids and forget about our grandkids. I think people want, you know –
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, I agree.
BARR: – a bit of forward thinking too, not just today, and like, you know, the rebate's great.
So why is France paying so little, and these scientists are saying it's going to be so much in Australia?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, the CSIRO and the Australian Energy Market Operator, they are the experts about what's happening in the Australian context, and you know, what's happening in France is historical, it's been happening there for decades, it's got different scenarios. We're the best country in the world for solar, for wind, for renewables –
BARR: Should we send someone over there?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: – we've got everything –
BARR: Could we like fly –
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: – you've got everything –
BARR: – send a Minister over and fly over, or –
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: – you need here to build batteries.
NATALIE BARR: So, what are you guys doing?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Don't worry, we pay plenty of attention to what's happening overseas.
JOYCE: Not enough.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: But the point is you would have to start doing it today, it wouldn't be ready for 20 years, and we have a pathway to cheaper energy. We've already approved renewable energy projects enough to power more than 3 million homes. That's being built right now. It's not going to be joining the grid in 20 years' time, it's being built right now.
And the problem with this is the previous government was warned that 24 coal‑fired power stations were going to close. They did no planning during their time in government. If they wanted to do nuclear over the last 10 years they could have –
BARNABY JOYCE: In the costing.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: – worked out where it was going to go, they could have had a plan for it, they never prepared for those 24 coal‑fired power stations going out of our grid. We're doing it now by building out renewable –
JOYCE: You're doing it, all right.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: – and transmission lines –
JOYCE: – you're doing it.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: – and storage.
BARR: Well, Barnaby, Tanya's right –
JOYCE: You're doing it, all right.
BARR: The power problem in this country, Barnaby, didn't just happen in two years. Coal has been ‑ the coal‑fired power stations have been closing down for years, many of them under your watch, so I don't think you can just say, "Oh, well, it's come upon us" can it?
Now the CSIRO says that solar and wind is going to be half the cost of the small‑scale nuclear reactors that the Coalition is proposing, Barnaby, so do we put all our offer, all other efforts into solar and wind?
JOYCE: No, we don't. Look, it's ridiculous. You've got Dr Paterson out there this morning saying quite clearly, I mean, GenCost has got an opinion, other people have got different opinions, other nations have got different opinions. Other nations have cheaper power than us. The nations that have nuclear power have cheaper power than us, especially countries such as France.
Now Tanya almost hit the nail on the head, she said, "Look, you don't want nuclear, because if you had nuclear they wouldn't want to build renewables". Well, of course they wouldn't, Tanya, because nuclear is cheaper, and it's these ideas, like saying, "We've got a housing policy, and what we're going to do is give everybody umbrellas". And you say, "Well, that's ridiculous, got to build houses". "No, no, umbrellas are quicker and so much cheaper.” You see, but they just don't work as a housing policy.
Well, intermittents, swindle factories, painting the fields of [indistinct] black. That doesn't work as an energy policy. You cannot have part‑time power trying to support a full‑time economy. And if you don't believe me, don't listen to GenCost –
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: That’s what batteries are for -
JOYCE: – don't listen to Tanya, don't listen to me, listen to your power bill, listen to your power bill.
BARR: Well, you know what, as a consumer sitting in the middle, we've got politicians from both sides saying, "This is a good idea, this is a good idea" and then we've got scientific studies up the Ying Yang saying different things. Maybe we need a bunch of scientists who are the really smart people in the middle giving us an unbiased upon. Maybe we need a little bit of a summit.
JOYCE: Nat, can I make a suggestion there –
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, maybe, Nat, you could –
JOYCE: – don't go ‑ don't go –
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: – ask businesses do they want to build nuclear.
JOYCE: – don't go to Australia [indistinct] to do that, maybe you go to France, maybe you go to Finland, maybe [indistinct] –
BARR: Well, Tanya says we're looking at France.
JOYCE: – [indistinct] all South Australians but go across the world.
BARR: Tanya, we're looking at France. Okay, Barnaby, thank you. Tanya, we're looking at France, they've got $49 ‑ theirs sounds really cheap.
JOYCE: Very cheap.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, why don't you see if there's any business in Australia that wants to spend $600 billion on nuclear? Why don't we see if there's an interest from business.
JOYCE: Why don't you remove the prohibition and let me find out.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: There plainly isn't.
JOYCE: Remove the prohibitions, Tanya, remove the prohibitions and let us find out.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, where's the business –
JOYCE: Remove the prohibitions.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: But where's the business that's putting its hand up?
JOYCE: They can't do it because you've got prohibition. You say they're not allowed to.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: So you're saying that –
BARR: Okay. I think we need a summit.
JOYCE: You have to remove the prohibitions.
BARR: I'm calling a summit.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Are you saying the reason there's no business that says we want to build it?
JOYCE: Well, remove them and we'll find out.
BARR: Can I do that?
JOYCE: Remove them.
BARR: Okay. I feel like we need smart people in a room from both sides.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You know, Nat –
BARR: Yeah, sorry, last word, Tanya.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: It's interesting that Germany is closing ‑ it's interesting that Germany is closing all its reactors.
JOYCE: Germany's opening up coal‑fired power stations, Tanya.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: If Barnaby thinks it's such a great idea, like are all the Germans dummies?
JOYCE: They're opening up coal‑fired power stations and pulling down their intermittents, opening up coal‑fired power stations.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I think if you shout a bit more, Barnaby, you'll make your point.
BARR: Okay. Look, I think we need more time –
JOYCE: They're opening coal‑fired power stations –
BARR: And we need some scientists. We'll work on it. Thank you both for your say. See you next week.
END
