The Hon Tanya Plibersek MP
Minister for Social Services
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
SUNRISE
MONDAY, 1 DECEMBER 2025
TOPICS: ENERGY TRANSITION; BARNABY JOYCE; SCHOOL UNIFORMS
NATALIE BARR: For their take, let's bring in Social Services Minister Tanya Plibersek and Independent MP Barnaby Joyce. That's what he is now. Tanya, are we ready to close these coal stations if blackouts are on the horizon?
TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR SOCIAL SERVICES: Well, it shows this report that coal is old, unreliable and expensive, and that renewables are the cheapest form of new energy and that we need to make sure that we're getting them into a stabilised grid as quickly as possible. Of course, it would have been better if this process had started 10 years ago when the Liberals and Nationals were first warned the 24 out of 28 coal fired power stations were closing. It'd be great if we started then. Instead, we had a previous government that stuck its head in the sand, had 23 different energy policies and didn't land a single one-
BARR: But Tanya-
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: -we're getting on with it. We're getting on with it.
BARR: You are, but it's slow. And this report shows that we have a lack of system security. That's the report's words, to get us through sudden spikes when, you know, we need more electricity all of a sudden, you know, on a hot day. So, this is a problem. How are we going to work this out?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, this task of grid stabilisation is something that the New South Wales Government is right across. They're trying to bring on the grid stabilising technology faster. The report that you're referring to talks about that they've in fact got legislation to allow that to happen faster. But Nat, it's true. All of this would have been better if it had started 10 years ago. But we're dealing with what we inherited and we're dealing with it quickly. We've got more renewables into the grid. This report shows that renewables are the cheapest form of new energy. We need gas and pumped hydro to back that up and we need to work on transmission as well. We're getting on with doing that. Instead, we've got now a Coalition that's got, you know, some other energy policy. Is it new nuclear, is it new coal? Who knows? Years more of delay and division on energy policy is what we can expect from the Coalition.
BARR: Yeah, Barnaby, Tanya's right, isn't she, that you guys took a long time to work out that coal was old and breaking down and closing down.
BARNABY JOYCE: Well, coal is being used basically in China and India. They're building new coal fired power stations that is the cheapest-
BARR: So, why didn't you build any new ones?
JOYCE: Well, we should have. That was a mistake, wasn't it? We should be building the coal fired power stations. I can say that now. And what I can say, they're getting on with it. Getting on with it as wrecking the grid. What's happening in a technical term is they've got a car that worked perfectly well, which is the energy car, and they randomly opened up the bonnet and started taking out parts and putting new parts in, thinking it was going to go. And guess what? It doesn't. And when they say it's the cheapest form of power, they mean the cheapest form of power if you're trying to follow their rule book of net zero. It's not the cheapest form of power. That is inevitably coal-
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: That's not right.
JOYCE: And what we -no it is right. Otherwise-
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: New coal is not cheaper.
JOYCE: -China, India, all these countries would be so dopey because they're putting it in, Tanya. Why do you think they're putting it in? [inaudible]
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: [inaudible] they’re also massively investing in renewables.
BARR: Okay, Barnaby, you're now admitting- hang on a second, just wait a second. So, Barnaby, you're now admitting that the Coalition failed, that you should have addressed our energy crisis years ago when you were actually in. Now we are in this mess. Do you know any, do you think there's any interest now with private companies investing in coal, Barnaby?
JOYCE: Yes, there is. As long as you change the legislation which says you have to go out of business. See, we've got legislation there, such as the safeguard mechanism, saying you've got to go. If you get rid of the legislation that you've got to go, then you're more likely to stay. I mean, what are you doing now? The only reason you've got these intermittent power is you've got Capacity Investment Schemes, secret agreements that pay them a deemed rate of return even if they don't produce an electron. And what we have now is that all of a sudden, as I've said before, the science is starting to eucharist because what you don't have is synchronicity, capacity. You have intermittent coming on. You have direct. You have direct power like rather than alternating power. And all the infrastructure to create this, which is going to be a complete debacle, is not in place. So, of course it doesn't work. And then Hallelujah! They've gone back and said we've got to keep the coal fired power stations going. Well, yes, in fact you should have built more coal fired power stations if you wanted to keep cheap electricity-
BARR: Like you should've. So, we've got a failure. So, here we are, the people of Australia-
JOYCE: Yeah because, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what. Because we believe-
BARR: -sitting here with expensive power. That's what we're left with.
JOYCE: We believe the net- yeah. Net zero became the preeminent policy.
BARR: Well, you backed it.
JOYCE: Because [inaudible]-
BARR: Because you and Morrison backed it. Barnaby.
JOYCE: I actually, yeah, I actually voted against it in the National Party Room. But, you know, they wanted-
BARR: But you backed it with Morrison, didn't you?
JOYCE: Yeah, well that was, you know, when you make a mistake, you know what you do? You fix it up. You don't continue on with it. Net zero is a massive mistake and we should fix it and you should be building your coal fire power stations. Otherwise, Australia, the lights are going to go out and we are just going straight towards that cliff now.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Not nuclear?
BARR: Okay.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Like you said six months ago.
JOYCE: You should have nuclear as well.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Is it nuclear or coal?
BARR: Okay. A lot of people think we should be open to other things.
JOYCE: We know that your policy is not working. That's the one thing we're absolutely certain about. Tanya, if you don't believe me, look at your power bill.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, it is. And this report says that it is.
BARR: Well, they're saying it's on track to be delivered but with-
JOYCE: [Inaudible] it’s wrong. Look at the power bill.
BARR: Yeah, exactly. The power bills are still going up. Moving on, Barnaby, former PM Tony Abbott has slammed your decision to quit the Nationals, potentially join One Nation, saying it was a little bit beneath you and that One Nation is a party of protest. Let's put the saga to bed. Are you joining forces with Pauline Hanson?
JOYCE: As I said, I'm strongly considering and I haven't done it yet. But look, I respect Tony Abbott but I understand there's going to be lots of people commentary like this and I just have to- I'll let it go through but people should review the tape. You know when I made that short statement in the chamber, the Member for Cowper, Pat Conaghan, the Member for Gibson, Darren Chester, were down there back slapping and shaking hands. So, they're obviously it's the issue they want. In fact, Pat and Darren looked happier than Jody and Albo. They were happier at the divorce then, then congratulations Albo and Jody, metaphorically, than they were at their wedding. And this is just goes to show you how toxic the relationship had become. And if you're in a toxic relationship you try to redeem it, but after a while you just get out of it.
BARR: Ok. When are you making a decision on whether you're going to join One Nation?
JOYCE: Next couple of weeks.
BARR: Ok, well, let us know. We're always here. Now, I want to get both sides on this one. Female students at a Sydney high school are hitting back at a ban on activewear. They say the rules are unfairly affecting them while the boys get free reign. Tanya, what do you think? Should the girls at Mosman High and other schools obviously be allowed to wear activewear?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Oh, look, I really think it depends a little bit on the activewear. I think if schools say to both boys and girls, we expect you to dress respectfully when coming to school, not too much, you know, skimpy gear at school seems like a reasonable request. If it's aimed at both boys and girls, it seems fair enough. I don't know about having separate rules for boys and girls. That's a different matter.
BARR: Yes, Barnaby, we're getting a lot of feedback on the open line. Some are saying anything but the scrunch bum leggings, bike shorts for blokes. Thoughts? Barnaby?
JOYCE: Just think that, you know, you leave something to the imagination as blokes. I remember when I was once, when it was the very tight swimmers, they used to say, cover your mullet and I think for blokes it's about the same with that. Just, just use your imagination. If it's a little bit too less, then put on a little bit more. Because I think it's also intimidating for other people with body image. I don't think it's a great thing.
BARR: Okay, I think we'll leave it there. Thank you very much. We'll see you next week.
ENDS
