THE HON TANYA PLIBERSEK MP
MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
SUNRISE WITH NATALIE BARR
MONDAY 2 SEPTEMBER 2024
SUBJECTS: ENVIRONMENT PROTECTION AGENCY, MCPHILLAMYS GOLD MINE.
NATALIE BARR: Well, the Prime Minister is set to make a major concession on the Government's planned environment watchdog in a bid to get it through Parliament before the election. Anthony Albanese is poised to make his flagship Environment Protection Agency a compliance-only watchdog, removing all the decision-making roles. Labor is in talks with the Coalition about paring back the new body's powers in a move that would likely win back big business. For more, we're joined by Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek and Nationals MP Barnaby Joyce. Good morning, Tanya. This is your wheelhouse. Why is the PM considering removing the EPA's decision-making role?
TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Well, there's a few things we know for sure, and that is that our current laws aren't working. We've had them for a couple of decades. Under the last government, a very prominent businessman, Professor Graeme Samuel, had a look at the laws. Everybody agreed with him, that they're not working for business and they're certainly not working to protect nature. So, we've got one set of legal changes through the Parliament already. We're on our second tranche of changes now. We've got them through the House of Representatives, but we've got to work with the Senate. And all the way through, we've been saying that if there are sensible suggestions made by the Greens or the crossbench or the Liberals or the Nationals to win their support, we're happy to look at those changes. I've said all along that this was going to take common sense and compromise and cooperation, and that's what we're prepared to do.
BARR: Barnaby, are you going to work with the Government on slicing the powers, basically, of the EPA?
BARNABY JOYCE: Well, I think it's incredibly important that people understand that we've got to. We can't just have this arbitrary blocking of issues that completely put a threat on the economic prosperity of our nation, as it happened in Blayney with the gold mine. Once you have an arbitrary decision that doesn't make sense, that is nonsensical, that doesn't stack up, that just seems like it was plucked out of thin air for the benefit of a pressure group rather than for the benefit of the local community, then what happens is business does lose confidence because they say, "well, if some secret group can turn up or another sideline issue can turn up and just put all the millions of dollars we put on the table to try and get this project going, just basically throw it in the bin", then we're going to find another country in the world to go to. Well, we'll head off to Venezuela, or we'll head off to Africa, we'll head off to south east Asia. But we're not going to stay in Australia because your risk is too high. Now, unfortunately, Tanya did that with the Blayney decision. Classic example of how things go terribly wrong. And in the central west of NSW, they're just screaming from the roof, how did you do this to us? That's what we're having with the so-called Environmental Defenders Office. They don't want to defend the environment. They want a sort of quasi form of socialism where nothing happens.
BARR: Ok, let's talk about that for a second, because we'll get people to catch up who aren't in NSW, who may not understand. So, there's this gold mining in the central west of NSW currently in the spotlight over this decision by the government, Tanya basically - to block a key part of the project to protect Indigenous cultural heritage. Now, the company warned the government back in June, issuing an order like this would end the project. Tanya, your Department's handpicked Indigenous cultural assessor, I understand, advised you not to make this order, that the tailings dam couldn't be put in that spot. Why did you ignore that advice?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, that's not what has happened. This is a 2,500 hectare site with a gold mine and associated infrastructure on it. I've said very clearly that the gold mine can go ahead, but that they have to find a new site for the tailings dam that is not going to destroy the Belubula River, which is important to local Indigenous people. It's a 2,500 hectare site and I've said that they can't put a waste dump on 400 hectares of the site. The company said to us that they've looked at four different sites. They looked at 30 different designs for the tailings dam. I'm sure if there really is $7 billion worth of gold in the ground, as they've said, that it's in their interests to find a new spot for the tailings dam. I've taken the advice of my Department. I've looked at about 2,500 pages of documentation. Barnaby is saying that this is secretive. It's so secretive, I put out a press release and I've done heaps of interviews just like this, explaining, well -.
JOYCE: Hang on, you mentioned the Aboriginal group -
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Barnaby, you say you want me to talk about it, and then you interrupt me -
JOYCE: You mentioned the Aboriginal group, give us a name of the Aboriginal people you were talking to. You weren't talking to the local land council-
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No, I was talking to -
JOYCE: No, you weren't talking to the people who clearly identified as living Aboriginal, being Aboriginal, growing up in the area. They've turned up and said, who on earth are you talking to?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: That's just not true.
JOYCE: Well, who are they then, tell us the name of the people in the group?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: The group that I've spoken to, the Wiradjuri Traditional Owners, Central West Aboriginal Corporation, is the exact same group that Sussan Ley, your colleague, listened to when she made a very similar decision to that not 50 kilometres away. She listened to the same group and used the same laws to make the same decision as I -
JOYCE: Tell us about this, didn't you say there was some secret thing that no one was allowed - haven't you mentioned that there was some secret business -
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: - Barnaby, listen. Listen for a change.
JOYCE: I am. Australia's listening -
BARR: Okay.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: The group that I've listened to, Barnaby, is the same group that your colleague, Sussan Ley, listened to when she made a similar decision.
JOYCE: Who are they, what are their names Tanya, what are their names?
BARR: Okay, which you’ve said before in interviews. I just want to get onto the actual ruling. The NSW EPA, Tanya, has said the impact on that river was minimal on the other sites that the tailings dam could possibly be put, three of the four other sites are in the declared area that you're talking about according to the company, the fourth site would apparently have more impact than this site. So, where are you suggesting the tailings dam could be?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, the company has to come to us with their suggestions. It's not for me to design the project, but the EPA is talking about environmental impact. The reason I've made this decision is because this area is culturally significant to the Wiradjuri Traditional Owners that I was talking about just a moment ago.
BARR: The company says it would be five to 10 more years -
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: That's nonsense.
BARR: To get a site through.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I have doubled on-time approvals since coming to government. Just recently I approved a project in nine weeks because it was in the right location and had the right environmental protections. We can do this very quickly if the project is designed properly.
BARR: And so, do you know another site? Have you got another site?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: It's not for me to suggest sites to the company. That is something for the company to do.
BARR: Ok.
JOYCE: It's not for environmental protections. It's for political protections in the seat of Sydney. It's for political protections in the suburban seat. This is not what the local land council, the Aboriginal Land Council has said. It's ridiculous.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Oh, honestly Barnaby. It is the same traditional owners as Susan Ley listened to when she made the same decision -
JOYCE: What are their names, give us the names -
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: When she was - the Wiradjuri Traditional Owners Central West Aboriginal Corporation.
JOYCE: Give us the names of the people you're talking to.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I'm not going to start naming individuals. What an absurd proposition.
BARR: But it's a representative local Tanya. Can you guarantee that?
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: That is the representative organisation that I've listened to. The same group that Susan Ley listened to when she made the same decision about the similar project 50 kilometres away.
JOYCE: So, the land council is wrong Tanya, the land council out there is wrong.
BARR: You're not talking about the local Aboriginal Land Council, Tanya.
MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I listened to the Orange Local Aboriginal Land Council as well. I took advice from them. There's the Wellington Valley Aboriginal group. I took advice and information from them. From academics, from a whole range of other people. The council was invited to make a submission on the Section ten application. 2,500 pages of advice and evidence from different people, including, I should say, Barnaby, a lot of local farmers who don't want this tailings dam built at the headwaters of the river because they are worried about their sheep and goat and honey businesses down the river. They're worried about the impact as well.
BARR: Okay, well, I think we've heard from both sides and I'm sure you'll be in contact with the company, and we'll get updates soon. Thank you very much. We'll see you next week.
END
