SUBJECTS: Murray-Darling Basin Plan, NSW Water Management

SARAH TOMLINSON, HOST: Now we’ve spoken today about what you would show the Environment Minister about our region if she came to the door, and here she is. The Honourable Tanya Plibersek has so far been to Hay, meeting with local cultural groups, touring dams and wineries here in Mildura, and has another full day ahead. Minister, good morning. 

TANYA PLIBERSEK, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Great to be with you.

TOMLINSON: Now, I said touring wineries. I should have said touring wine growers just to actually – 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: You make it sound like a holiday and, of course, it is a beautiful part of the world, but not quite a holiday.

TOMLINSON: Minister, a long question to start with, but let’s set the scene. You’ve stepped into the role at a crucial time for the Murray–Darling Basin Plan; two short years left before 450 gigalitres of water have to have been returned to the system for the environment. Less than one per cent of that has been delivered. Nonetheless, your party, the Labor Party, now in power, have promised at the election that that would be delivered in time. How are we going to achieve that? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I think it’s fair to be upfront with people; it’s going to be very difficult. I think it is important that we deliver on the plan as intended. It was an election commitment and the very reason that I’m here in the southern part of the Basin talking to all sorts of stakeholders, agricultural stakeholders, people who live in towns, First Nations, traditional owners, environmentalists, water experts – I’m talking to everyone listening very carefully to work out just how we’re going to do this. I know it’s challenging, and I know that a lot of the communities that live along the river feel like they’ve given a lot to the plan already. So, we need to work cooperatively, collaboratively to work out how we’re going to deliver on the rest of the plan. 

We’ve got a lot of projects underway at the moment. In fact, I’m announcing one today with the Victorian Government and I’m happy to talk in more detail about that. It’s almost $38 million that will fix up about 27 kilometres worth of channels. It will replace or upgrade about 700 metres and I think that makes a big difference for irrigators who rely on that. It will return water to the system without taking water away from farmers and it will also have a really important benefit for First Nations Australians. This is a really innovative project with the Victorian Government where water will also be returned to traditional owners, and I think that’s a first for Victoria and it may well be a first for the whole Basin in this sort of efficiency project. So, it’s a great model.

TOMLINSON: And you’ve seen that support, then? You know, over time, Federal and State Labor Governments have disagreed on what we should do with our water. 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Quite a few people have said to me, well, a couple of things, on this trip. The first is pretty much everyone says, “you could improve the plan this way or that way” they have suggestions about what needs to change but no one so far has said to me they’d like to go back to a time before the plan. So, it is about building on what we’ve got and quite a few people have said to me that Mark Twain once said, “whiskey is for drinking; water is for fighting over”, and I’m hoping that we can move that along to a more cooperative arrangement. I think everyone I’ve spoken to wants to see a healthy Murray–Darling Basin system. You’ve got 2.3 million people who live in the Basin, a million square kilometres. You’ve got all sorts of interests. But pretty much everyone, the first thing they say to me is they want to see a healthy river because without a healthy river, you don’t see healthy communities and you don’t see healthy farms.

TOMLINSON: Your government hasn’t ruled out water buybacks. Will they become essential? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, it’s not the first tool that I want to reach for. I’d really like to find other ways of approaching this, but I’m just a few weeks into the job. I’m certainly not going to start ruling things in or out at this stage. I’m here on a listening tour, so I’m listening.

TOMLINSON: On the other hand, we’re witnessing yet again another flood disaster in New South Wales and the system has a lot of water in it. Is increasing pumping allocations on the table? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, I’m not going to make decisions like that on the fly. I’ll take advice on that. But you’re certainly right about the catastrophic floods that we’re experiencing in Sydney at the moment and moving up to the Hunter region, they’re looking at, you know, the worst floods in living memory in the Hunter as well. And I suppose the one thing that this reminds us of is that climate change is here. It’s real. And that means at the moment we’re seeing these catastrophic weather events on the coast, but it is a reminder that as beautiful and green as everything looks now, there is a very good chance that in a few years’ time we will be back to facing water shortages. I hope we won’t be facing the sorts of things we saw in the Millennium drought, but we have to prepare for the worst; and that means that when we’re thinking of the next Basin Plan, we need to take into account the fact that the climate is changing. There will be less water. There will be more pressure on the whole system.

TOMLINSON: Minister, I wanted to play you a grab. This is Inspector General of Water Compliance Troy Grant when he was in attendance with an audience in Mildura recently with the New South Wales Government. Let’s take a listen to what he has to say: 

            TROY GRANT: As it stands, New South Wales are getting a free pass because they are late with their plans. It really isn’t a fair playing field across the Basin until all WRPs are accredited.

TOMLINSON: So, Troy Grant went on to say it made it possible for the Murray–Darling Basin due to – sorry, I’ll start again. He said the New South Wales Government was responsible for probably the most critical failure of the Murray–Darling Basin Plan because of its 20 water resource plans were years overdue. He said it made it impossible for the Murray–Darling Basin Plan to be enforced and that his first conversation with you as the Minister for Environment would be about the potential use of Commonwealth powers to step in. New South Wales say it’s now resubmitted six plans with 14 left to go. What’s your view on the use of the step in power with situations like this? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Two things. I have had a couple of very good conversations with Troy Grant about his role as the Inspector and he takes it very seriously. I mean, he’s talking to his former colleagues in the New South Wales Government. He sent them a very clear message that they need to get their skates on. I’ve also spoken to the newish New South Wales Government Water Minister. I met with Kevin Anderson again yesterday and he assures me that he takes this very seriously. As you say, they have submitted six plans now. I’m very keen to work cooperatively with New South Wales. I would like to see them speed up the delivery of the rest of the plans that we expect from them, and I expect them to be good quality too. It’s not just about getting your homework in on time. I actually want to see plans that will do what they’re supposed to do. And so, my first approach is to work cooperatively wherever possible. Again, I mean, I’m just a few weeks into the job. I’m not going to start ruling out stepping in if it’s necessary down the track.

TOMLINSON: What would it look like if you did? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I’m not going to go into that because my first approach is to try to work cooperatively. I think the extraordinary thing about this is that these plans are three years late. New South Wales has had years before that to work on them. But I’d like to know why the Federal Government has let them – the previous Federal Government allowed this just to drift on in this way, I don’t understand why. I think there’s 33 plans in total, the bulk of them in New South Wales, 20 of them in New South Wales; everybody else has done what they’re supposed to do. I don’t get why the Federal Government hasn’t been saying to New South Wales for some time where – 

TOMLINSON: Is that a moot point now? I guess it’s in your hands.

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, and the problem for the Inspector General, for Troy, is that he can’t inspect where there are no plans. He can’t hold the Government to account where there are no plans, the New South Wales Government to account where there are no plans. So, we absolutely need these plans quickly andhey need to be good quality. They need to do what they’re supposed to do, and I’m assured by the New South Wales Government that they are now taking this seriously. I’m going to work with them on that basis.

TOMLINSON: Have the Victorian and South Australian Governments stepped in and urged you to take control of this?

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: No, they haven’t had to. This was obviously a priority as soon as I got the job. It was a glaring omission and something that was obvious from pretty much day one that we needed to tackle.

TOMLINSON: Right. If you have just joined us, Minister for Environment, Tanya Plibersek is my guest; she’s visiting the region over the next couple of days. Labor also committed to implementing a “no meter, no pump” policy across the Basin. Where are we now on meterings? This is a question that many in our audience wanted to know from you; and how quickly do you think we could see universal metering? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Oh, look, that’s one of the things I’m being briefed on, on this trip. And, for example, this announcement today, the $38 million for the Lower Murray Water Efficiency Project includes replacing or upgrading about 700 metres – this is a very big project across the Basin and I’m going to have to, you know, get a bit more advice about how long it’s going to take and how we’re going to do it.

TOMLINSON: Minister, as part of your tour you will be flying over the Menindee Lakes system and other parts of the river to get a firsthand understanding of the scale of the place, I guess, as well as the issues but you won’t be setting down there. Do you have plans to meet with stakeholders in that part of the country and that part of the flows? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yeah, absolutely. Look, it’s a million square kilometres, and this first trip to the Southern Basin area we’ve had a few stopovers and we will again today. We’re going to the Loxton Research Centre. We’ll fly over the Menindee Lakes, as you said, fly over the Lower Lakes, fly over the Choke, Lake Hume, but I will absolutely be back to speak to people. I had a number of stakeholder meetings along the way yesterday and I’ll meet with more people before we take off today, including Ali Cupper. And this is going to be the first of many visits, I hope. I think I’ve got a lot of good advice from my meetings last night from a lot of different perspectives and, you know, my intention is to keep coming back and to keep listening.

TOMLINSON: The Basin Plan is due for a review in 2026. Do we need to bring that forward? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, we’ve said that we would consider bringing forward the review. At this stage, I’d like to see – I would like to see a bit more emphasis on delivery and I’m going to spend time working with stakeholders, like we’re doing with the New South Wales Government on their plans, to see if we can push the delivery along a little bit. That doesn’t mean that we’re not doing research that would feed into the review all the way along. So, of course, I’m talking to farmers and to environmentalists, to traditional owners, to hydrologists and geologists, all sorts of experts, about the sort of investments we need to make to update our science. We’re obviously working with the CSIRO. We’ve got some great cooperative research centres that are working on elements of managing the river system. And all of that will eventually feed into the 2026 review come what may. 

Look, I mean, one of the most important elements of this is the fact that all our scientists tell us that in the future this scarce resource that we’re already having, you know, lots of conversations about how best to manage, is going to become an even scarcer resource. We’re not going to, long term, have more water in the system, and that’s got to influence the sort of research and thinking that we’re doing leading into the review.

TOMLINSON: Is this the toughest portfolio you’ve taken on so far? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Look, I’ve had some toughies. Every time you take on a new portfolio, first of all, it feels like someone’s tipped out a thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle on the coffee table and you have to start getting the shape of the issues before you, and I do feel like I’m getting the shape of the issues before me. It is complex but, you know, I wasn’t a doctor and I took on the Health Portfolio and I think you can – the real key of being a good minister is being able to take advice, being able to listen and being able to put the pieces of the jigsaw together in a way that benefits the most people.

TOMLINSON: Steven from Curlwaa, just on the junction on rivers there, has said, “Hi, Sarah, the Minister has just mentioned the next Basin Plan. Will we get there with all the thousands of hectares of new plantings that are happening yearly? Surely this isn’t sustainable.” 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, I think, again, these are questions that we’ll have to look at over the next couple of years. The approvals for new plantings are obviously in the hands of State Governments and I know that we are seeing a very large increase in the number of plantations, particularly almonds and things like that. The question is not so much how much land is under cultivation but how much water goes to watering that land, those crops, and I think it is important that if we are approving new irrigation areas, we’re doing it with much more efficient use of water. So, that’s something that we need to look at.

TOMLINSON: From being from an inner-city electorate, what’s the thing that stood out to you, what’s surprised you that you never knew before? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: I think the best surprise I’ve had in the few weeks I’ve been in the job is literally everyone I’ve spoken to is keen to make it work. And I remember, you know, a decade ago when the plan was first introduced, there were a lot of people who thought that they could never come to an accommodation, you know. It was irrigators versus environmentalists or irrigators versus tourism operators, and I really do feel like we’ve moved beyond that conversation now. We’ve got all sorts of people from all sorts of perspectives trying to make it work.

TOMLINSON: Minister, just before you go, an issue unrelated to water but still very close to our heart was the recent reburial of Mungo Man. At one point it was up to the Environment Minister, the Federal Environment Minister, to make that decision. Has that now fallen in your lap? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Yes. It is something over time that I’ll have an involvement in. You might remember that some of the remains were reburied despite there being a halt on that process –

TOMLINSON: The traditional owners had asked for an injunction. Yes. 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: The issue is back now with a working group of traditional owners who are going to come back with a suggestion about how to proceed from here. I will be hearing from them, I expect, next week. It is a very complex issue, and we need to deal with it as sensibly and as respectfully as we can.

TOMLINSON: You’re listening to ABC Mildura–Swan Hill where the Minister, Tanya Plibersek, is my guest today. And what’s on the cards for today? 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Well, Menindee Lakes, Loxton Research Centre, Lower Lakes, Barmah Choke, Lake Hume – you name it.

TOMLINSON: Fair enough. Well, we’ll let you go and do that, and I’m sure we will be speaking again soon. 

MINISTER PLIBERSEK: Lovely to talk to you.

TOMLINSON: Minister Tanya Plibersek there joining us on ABC Mildura–Swan Hill.

END