TANYA PLIBERSEK MP
SHADOW MINISTER FOR EDUCATION AND TRAINING
MEMBER FOR SYDNEY

 

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC RADIO DRIVE MONDAY POLITICAL FORUM WITH RICHARD GLOVER
MONDAY, 19 OCTOBER 2020

SUBJECTS: NSW ICAC investigation; Federal integrity commission proposal; Victorian response to Covid-19; Australian brands buy-back; Australian vernacular study.
 
RICHARD GLOVER, HOST: Monday Political Forum on your radio Dai Le Independent Councillor, Fairfield City Council, Tanya Plibersek Shadow Minister for Education and Training, Labor MP of course and Dave Sharma Liberal Member for Wentworth. Dai, Tanya and Dave welcome all. Thank you very much for talking to us. 
 
DAI LI, COUNCILLOR FOR FAIRFIELD CITY COUNCIL: Thanks Richard. 
 
TANYA PLIBERSEK, SHADOW MINISTER FOR EDUCATION AND TRAINING: It's a pleasure. 
 
DAVE SHARMA, MEMBER FOR WENTWORTH: Thanks for having us.
 
GLOVER: I got three, I can hear three voices. So I've got all three. Now everywhere I go, everybody is behind her. So said Liberal frontbencher Gareth Ward today expressing what he sees is the public support for the Premier, despite the revelations of that secret relationship with the disgraced MP Daryl Maguire. In the Liberal Party room the mood is the Premier will survive the revelations. Do you think they're right Dave Sharma?
 
SHARMA: Look, I think what this has been as how you described it Richard, has been revelations of a secret relationship and I feel very much for the Premier that she's had her private life sort of exposed and discussed and dissected and scrutinised by everyone in in this way. But I think you know as far as I can see that's  all there is to it. It was a relationship that she kept private and secret and you know, good luck to her that's her entitlement for a number of years. But that seems to be where this story ends. I don't think there's much more to it. And if that's if that's the case, I don't see any reason why the Premier should be stepping aside.
 
GLOVER: I suppose some people would say at the moment where somebody says to expect an email from a property developer who's not their constituent, but they say look she's got a problem in Western Sydney, you'd have to sort of think we'll why you representing her? Why are you seeking favours for her, what's going on? You know that it will be normal to be a bit suspicious at that point. 
 
SHARMA: Well, I don't think there's any doubt and ICAC is going through this quite exhaustively that the Daryl Maguire has done some things that are not befitting a proper of a politician or any public official for that matter and I'm sure they'll look into this. But I haven't seen the make of a further, subsequent leak and implicate the Premier in any of this and I don't expect they will.
 
GLOVER: Tanya Plibersek, is the Liberal Party party room right in backing in the Premier in this way?
 
PLIBERSEK: Well, I think ICAC has to be allowed to do its work properly. I mean people are very fixated on the relationship between the Premier and Daryl Maguire. I actually frankly couldn't care less. Her private life is a hundred percent her private life. The question here that ICAC is investigating is has he done the wrong thing and has anybody helped him or turned a blind eye to that wrongdoing. That's the important question to answer. 
 
GLOVER: Is it fair enough for the New South Wales public though to set some of that against the idea that she has been a very good Premier in terms of particularly this Covid response, there's a certain self-interest that a voter should correctly use in this, isn't there? If they believe that she's done well in saving lives, we're in still in the middle of a pandemic.
 
PLIBERSEK:  Look I'm not going to pre-empt anything that ICAC will find. I would say this in a general sense, if someone has acted corruptly or if they have turned a blind eye to corruption, it doesn't matter how sorry you feel for them, how much you like them. Whether they're, in my case, if it was a Labor politician, you have to look beyond that and say our democracy is too precious and integrity in decision-making is too precious to ignore these sorts of issues. And I think it is important  that we continue to maintain a high standard. Since the Liberals were elected in New South Wales, they have lost more than 10 people to ICAC style, or ICAC investigations that have looked at property developer donations and so on. We need to maintain a high degree of integrity. When Jodi McKay fought off the corrupt developers up in Newcastle it cost her seat. She paid a very high price for it. We need to stamp out that sort of behaviour in our public life.
 
GLOVER: Labor had some spectacular cases though hasn't it? From Eddie Obeid to Joe Tripodi.
 
PLIBERSEK: We have and I'm not for a second saying that they should be treated any differently because they betray the people that voted for them. They betray the Labor Party members who work so hard to get them elected when they behave badly. I take no quarter, you know, it doesn't matter who it is, doesn't matter which party they're part of, it doesn't matter what the you know sad backstory is if you've done the wrong thing, you've betrayed the trust of the people who rely on governments to make sure they've got a job, deliver a good health or education system. That's what matters. It actually is frankly bizarre that this guy even had time to be running a whole second business. Why isn't he looking after his constituents, I wouldn't have time to run a consulting business on top of my work as a Member of Parliament and that in itself is ludicrous that he would have time for a whole second job.
 
GLOVER: There was one suggestion last week that he was selling a Chinese-made, you know, the small electronic devices from his office in his spare time. But anyway Dai Le, what do you think is the Liberal Party party room right in back in the Premier over this?
 
LE: Can I say that, look people being having been part of the machinery at one, stage people will always a find a way to knock off the leader whichever side of politics they're on. I don't think that you know, it's a while they might come out and this is the one thing that I've always said over the years, a lot of politicians will go out that don't say what they mean and they don't mean what they say. And so, you know, they might be supportive. They might come across that they're supportive but behind the scenes the numbers are being done and being crunched to make sure that there will be changes happening. 
 
GLOVER: So you believe she won't last in the end?
 
LE: Look I have, I believe, I would like to believe that she will take the Liberal Party to the next election, but knowing the way how politics work people find a way to you know, they'll find a way. And I think that it's a shame because she has definitely done a great job and her personal life should have been left at that and I think, I agree with Tanya that you know in general sense ICAC has to look at corrupt behaviour, find those who are better at those, you know, people have behaved corruptly and actually should expose that but I think watching so many personal lives, of personal, the personal lives of people being exposed and aired out like, you know as a laundry, it's just terrible and I think there has to be a way that ICAC can, a body of ICAC can actually keep some of these personal you know stories...
 
GLOVER: They did make some effort to hold some of it. Someone inadvertently published the... 
 
LE: *INAUDIBLE* Yeah. That's to me that is appalling. How can you know, how can that happen in this day and age? How can information beyond the internet for half an hour? I just think that it's appalling, so something has to be done to improve that whole security system. Otherwise it's you know, that that will completely, could undermine the work that ICAC is doing.
 
GLOVER: Can I ask a quick supplementary question to all three of you. Why do we see it seem so slow in terms of getting a federal ICAC and with teeth when we can see, putting the premier to one side, when we can see and in terms of some of the others have been caught up in it. It's doing pretty effective work. Dai Le what's your view about a federal ICAC?
 
LE: Look, I think that I think it's very important to ensure that a body of federal body similar to the New South Wales ICAC being setup has to have some, real Integrity that it works, so that in a way I wouldn't want to see what's happening where by people's lives get exposed this way, but actual corruption gets eliminated and can we ensure that that's going to happen at a federal level. So, you know, I just think that's just a hard work. 
 
GLOVER: Tanya Plibersek, we seem to be very slow about actually getting there with a federal ICAC.
 
PLIBERSEK:  Yeah, well two years ago the Government said they started work on it a year earlier and still nothing and do you know why? Dodgy water buy backs, sports rorts, airport land that was bought for $30 million, it's worth $3 million. The letter that was plainly forged that Angus Taylor provided the media Stuart Roberts trip to China, purporting to be a representative of the Australian Government and getting a Rolex for his troubles. I mean, do you really have to ask why we've got no federal ICAC? And the proposal that this Government has put forward is a toothless ICAC. It's the Integrity Commission you have when you don't want to have an Integrity Commission. It cannot look at anything in the past, so it could only look at things that happen after it was established, after its legislation had passed and it can only look at things that the Government refers to it. So no whistle-blowers, no brave whistle-blowers coming forward and saying I saw something wrong in my workplace or I was asked for a bribe or I believe this is wrong. So you've got a government that says shall I investigate myself? Mmm. No, it's not very convenient to do that. I don't think I will refer myself to the new Federal Integrity Commission. Oh what a joke.
 
GLOVER: Dave Sharma, there was a quite amusing Moir cartoon in the herald on Saturday of Mr. Morrison going to a pet shop and asking for a guard dog, but could it be one with very small teeth, please?
 
SHARMA: I didn't see that. Look I think it's important to get the design right here. And I think Dai made some important points. I mean, I think some of the stuff we've seen coming out in the New South Wales ICAC this last week or two reminds me a little of the Kenneth Starr Commission, which was the body that investigated Bill Clinton and ultimately led to his impeachment for what would undoubtedly personal and character failings, but I think that the level of exposure and the level of voyeurism that accompanied them were kind of unnecessary or unrelated to the public interest at work here. And I think we need to make sure that anybody that we design, yes does hold government officials and politicians to account, but it also doesn't become a sort of a you know, a body that unnecessarily invades the privacy and people's lives are exposes things of a personal nature. 
 
GLOVER: Yeah but look at the...I know there's been some mistakes along the way of which Nick Greiner might be, who set it up might be the prime example, but you know, they've also managed to get some pretty serious sculpts from both sides of politics of people who really were involved in serious corruption.
 
SHARMA: But I think you know, I mean ultimately that the sculpts are there law enforcement is because people have broken the law and we've got the laws there for a reason and this is why their held to account, the media does this as well. So, you know, absolutely we need to make sure that happens but I think we just need to be careful in the design that we don't set up a body that ends up doing things with, you know, unintended consequences.
 
GLOVER: Tanya, I could hear you wanted to have a word?
 
PLIBERSEK: I really do because I think the relationship is a complete distraction. It wouldn't matter whether it was Premier's boyfriend or brother or squash partner or childhood friend if they're, if what's being suggested is there was a blind eye turn to corruption that's what matters. It doesn't matter what the nature of the relationship is. What matters is: have we fully discharged our responsibilities as public figures? That's the only question that is being asked or should be asked and I know people had titillated by the personal elements of this. That should be private, that should not be part of this. Let's focus on the issues at hand. What has Daryl Maguire done? Who knew? What did they know? 
 
GLOVER: Suppose the only personal thing that might touch on is if it's if you feel he has been a person who has exaggerated his feelings for her in order to target her because he saw that she was a person who could make his business more profitable. At that point you do feel a bit of sympathy for her, a bit more additional sympathy.
 
PLIBERSEK: Well, of course, but that's a side issue what matters is have all of us discharged our responsibilities as public figures according to the law and not just according to the letter of the law according to the spirit of the law. Have we discharged our responsibilities to the people of New South Wales properly? That's the question.
 
GLOVER: Monday Political Forum. Dai Le is here. Sorry David another word from you?
 
SHARMA:  Well, I just say I've been I think that's true up to a point, but ultimately the guardians of whether elected officials have discharged their duty to the people properly is the people themselves at elections, and I think that's what we need to make sure we maintain. Ultimately all political leaders are accountable to the public who elect them and bodies that enforce the law have an important role to play but the ultimate accountability is to the people.
 
GLOVER: The good old voters. Dave Sharma is here, Tanya Plibersek and Dai Le. And now Daniel Andrews has been much criticised for the tough Victorian lockdown, but it seems to have worked. Some say Victoria has smashed the second wave in a way that's not been achieved anywhere else in the world. Whatever the government's mistakes early on with hotel quarantine, should they now be getting three cheers from the rest of the country for what they've managed to achieve? Dave Sharma.
 
SHARMA: I think we should be very encouraged and plays and cheering on the Victorian government for what they've, you know, for suppressing this this second wave, I think that's important. But I think there's still a legitimate question to be asked, were the measures taken always necessary to fulfill that aim? Things like curfew, things like the 5k limit, things like the limitations on business, because it's undoubtedly true that the level of personal hardship that's been imposed upon people, and economic hardship imposed on people, has been much more severe in Victoria than in any other state in Australia for much the same or in fact worse (inaudible).
 
GLOVER: But hasn't that been the actual cause though of the success which is world class?
 
SHARMA: I don't think so. I mean, I don't think we've seen things like that in New South Wales. I mean, there were no cases new cases of community transmission in New South Wales in the past 24 hours. But if you, if you've had anyone, I had the Treasurer Josh Frydenberg visit last week in my electorate, and he was astonished at the level of normal life that was going on in Sydney because it's like nothing that has been seen in Melbourne for several months now and I think that has come at a significant cost of people and that's what needs to be weighed up here. 
 
GLOVER: Wentworth is not normal Dave. Let's face it.
 
SHARMA: It's a pretty extraordinary part of the world, no doubt about it, Richard. 
 
GLOVER: Dai Le is here ,Tanya Plibersek and Dave Sharma.  Dai Le, does, I know they will you know, they produced their own misfortune in the hotel quarantine stuff up, but we need to cheer them on for managing to take a wave, which at one point was, you know, 700 cases, over 700 cases a day to virtually nothing now. 
 
LE: Well, look, I will agree that to some extent with Dave Sharma in terms of yes, we, you know, it's great what Victoria has done but I just came off a Cisco mental health forum and speaking to people in Melbourne and you, the mental health issue is huge, not just obviously in Melbourne, but obviously across the country in terms of the impact of Covid-19 on people's mental health and well-being. That's, I think, a major issue that we still will actually see, you know, the outcomes of that subsequently. Secondly, I think businesses have suffered and I think you weigh up it's great now that's going to come out of it, but then what's going to happen to the happen to the economy, to the businesses out there that, and people losing jobs and I'll be interested to find out, you know, if they've got the plan for that. So it's a really interesting, I mean, luck going to what Dave Sharma said, New South Wales, we've done pretty well, businesses have you know, we did not obviously take all those measures that Victoria did and we still performed quite well. 
 
GLOVER: Hmm. Yeah the last time you were with us Dai, you said that the level of compliance in places like Fairfield is really quite high, partly maybe a cultural thing, people already quite used to wearing masks. But is that still continuing? 
 
LE: Yes, that's right, everywhere you go people just wearing masks as a normal without, a normal piece of, like a carrying a phone. They were a mask. So early on our area have people in the community have been just wearing masks, has been great. And I think that has really also stemmed the spread of the virus. 
 
GLOVER: You got to get some way of saying "Vote Dai Le" on them and hand them out. 
 
LE: I will!
 
GLOVER: We've got Dai Le, independent Councillor of Fairfield City Council, Tanya Plibersek, the Shadow Minister for Education and Training, and Dave Sharma the Liberal Member for Wentworth. Tanya Plibersek, there has been a lot of criticism of Daniel Williams, of Daniel Andrews, sorry, but he does seem to have come through with the data in the end?
 
PLIBERSEK: Yeah. They've smashed it in Victoria. I really take my hat off to them. It has been so hard. I can't imagine how difficult it's been to be in such a long lockdown but Victorians should be really, really proud of themselves. And it's been quite disappointing to see some of the Federal Victorian MPs giving a hard time to the Victorian state government, and what would have been much more helpful is if the Federal government did its share including taking care of things like aged care, which is wholly a Federal government responsibility and has been a source of real danger in Victoria, and looking after the 29,000 Australian still stuck overseas and actually having a COVID tracing up that worked so that the economy could have opened up faster because we knew where, you know, where the hot spots were, where people had come into contact with people who might have been infectious. I mean, it is really sad that what people responded to so well at the beginning of this, which was a state and Federal government working, states and Federal government working together, has been dropped as time has gone on.
 
GLOVER: I mean it was sort of doing spectacularly well, I hasten to add, but he was solving a problem that his government had caused in the first place.
 
PLIBERSEK: Look, there were obviously problems with hotel quarantine, just as we've had problems with the Ruby Princess that had to be cleaned up afterwards, but I don't think it's very helpful to have a Federal government piling on and if you look at the failures in aged care. The failures in aged care are wholly the responsibility of the Federal government. The failure of the tracing app, I mean, this is an app that cost $70 million and has found 14 people. Imagine if the tracing app worked, how much earlier we could have opened up? 
 
GLOVER: Yeah, although it's, you know partly failed because people have been putting others from downloading it in the first place, there's been, there's so much criticism of it from various sources that, you know, only is it seven million in the end downloaded it. Would have been more advantageous if we'd all downloaded it.
 
PLIBERSEK: And I was encouraging people to download it. I was out there on my Twitter. So, you know, I'm an early adopter. I'm going to download it, I’ve made all my family download it. It's absolutely true. But, you know, that, if that had have worked it would have made a huge difference. That's the Commonwealth's responsibility.
 
GLOVER: But it works though, it's important to say it works to some extent though. We don't want to get in the situation where we are discouraging people from having it on their phones because it sometimes has worked.
 
PLIBERSEK: 14 times.
 
GLOVER: Well in14 times when there hasn't been a case, there hasn't been an alternative means of finding the person, often you can find a person by multiple means which doesn't mean it hasn't worked or am I getting too old?
 
PLIBERSEK: I don't know. I reckon for $70 million you would want you would want to do a bit better than net 14 extra, wouldn't you?
 
GLOVER: or you could get a pigeon to deliver the message to each of them individually. Tanya Plibersek, Dai Le and Dave Sharma are here. Now Australia has lost many of its iconic brands to overseas firms over the years, from Arnott's biscuits to Foster's beer. But at least one of them is coming home with Andrew Forrest’s buy back of R.M. Williams. Does it matter that these firms have foreign owners, and what else would you like to see back in Australian hands? Tanya Plibersek?
 
PLIBERSEK: Well, I would like to get my SAO biscuit and eat it while I'm wearing my Speedos and my Ugg boots and know that all of them were Australian owned and made in Australia. 
 
GLOVER: I think Speedo went in 1968 something like that. 
 
PLIBERSEK: And actually no one wants to see me in my Speedos but Jay Weatherill, when he was Premier of South Australia brought Violet Crumble back to South Australia. It was an iconic South Australian chocolate bar, brand. More seriously, look, I think it's a real shame that we've lost manufacturing capacity in some areas, particularly the automotive industry. I think it was terrible that we goaded the car industry into leaving Australia and what we really need, we do need foreign investment. It's very good for Australian development, but we need a bedrock of Australian investment in our own ideas and ingenuity. We need better investment in research and development. We need to protect and expand the research and development that's happening in our universities and in our businesses. The government tried to cut a billion and a half dollars from research and development tax concessions recently. Now they've announced some extra support for manufacturing. Well, it's a shame that it's come after so many years of this being hollowed out and undermined, and just incidentally, we need to we need to be training more apprentices. We've got 140,000 fewer apprentices than we did when the Liberals came to office. We can't build things in Australia without the skilled workers. We need cheaper power. We need to invest in cheaper, cleaner renewable energy that can power a new manufacturing revolution. 
 
GLOVER: All right. Dave Sharma, is it important that these brand names be brought back?
 
SHARMA: It's a heartwarming story but I think the more important thing is that these brands are identifiably Australian, the content, the design, the lifestyle that they go with and that's not going to be lost, I don't think, no matter, you know, who's on the share register of these things and I think it's important when you have these discussions, I mean recognise the nostalgic value of them, but let's not look too far back with rose tinted glasses at, you know, a mythical era of Australia in the 1950s or 60s when we know when we made things, and things like that. I think we should be excited about the future. I think there's things like quantum computing, like space, like medical devices, artificial intelligence, where there's, you know, a whole lot of world leading Australian companies and businesses and researchers and investors and that's really where we need to be pointing the direction of Australia if we are to remain a prosperous, vibrant and intellectually creative country in the years ahead. So, you know, I think this is a nice story. It's great. Of course, it's great to have it back but I don't think that can be the, you know, that can really dictate our national economic agenda.
 
GLOVER: Yeah. Dai Le, Tanya Plibersek, and Dave Sharma here. Now Australian slang is to be put under the microscope after Monash University's Kate Burridge was awarded an ARC Grant to study its various wonderful forms. What are some of your favourite pieces of Australian vernacular she should have on her list. Dai Le you got to confront Australian vernacular when you arrived without English, how is that?
 
LE: Exactly! I thought, oh I don't know, 'reffo'. I mean, you know, I learned English as my second language, so I can't I don't know what some of the Australian vernacular is, that could be included. My goodness. I can't contribute. 
 
GLOVER: Well, what were the what were the words that left you most confused when you first came?
 
LE: Lollies.
 
GLOVER: Oh yeah, OK.
 
LE: Yeah, because I didn't know what lollies were so but because we're in refugee camps they were called candies because we had two Americans, missionaries, so I came here and they talked about lollies. I'd never heard the word lollies. 
 
GLOVER: Would you like a lolly, Dai? No, she said not knowing what they were. Tanya Plibersek, what's your favourite bit of the vernacular? 
 
PLIBERSEK: Well, Dai has just reminded me of my mum telling me a story that she, when she first came to Australia, she was invited to someone's house for tea. So she ate before she went because she thought she was getting a cup of tea. Then she got there and they offered her, you know, they put dinner in front of her and she said 'I'm really full, sorry'. Why did you eat before you came here?
 
GLOVER: There's that whole thing about bring it bring a plate and so you do.
 
PLIBERSEK: She actually also sent me to a birthday party with an empty plate because the invitation said 'bring a plate'. So I did. My favourite, I'm not sure if I can say it on the radio, Richard, it starts with a 'B' , it starts with the word 'Bull' and it ends in 'it' and the second word is artist. BS artist. I think that is so Australian and it and it calls it out so well.
 
GLOVER: It is pretty good. Dave Sharma. What's your favourite bit of the vernacular?
 
SHARMA: Well, I think the great bit about vernacular is it involves and kind of every generations' use of it is different. So I'm always picking up stuff from from my kids. I think one of my middle daughter Estella was telling me yesterday that something was a bit of a flex and I was like, what do you mean it's a flex? And she was like you should put that on social media, dad, that'll be a real flex. Apparently, a flex like some sort of display of strength or courage or pride in what you do, but it's a bit of a thing and I love that, I mean the whole generation that's growing up now, they find our own my generations' vernacular completely antiquated and unfashionable, and they would never, never deign to use it.
 
GLOVER: Dave. Don't take her advice. That's my only advice. Hey we're out of time but thank you to Dai Le, Tanya Plibersek and Dave Sharma. Thank you everyone. Thanks for talking to us.

ENDS