TANYA PLIBERSEK MP
SHADOW MINISTER FOR EDUCATION
SHADOW MINISTER FOR WOMEN
MEMBER FOR SYDNEY
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
ABC RADIO SYDNEY DRIVE WITH RICHARD GLOVER
MONDAY, 26 JULY 2021
SUBJECTS: Sydney lockdown; Scott Morrison's failed vaccine rollout; Interstate tensions; Anti-lockdown protests; JobKeeper; Tokyo 2020 Olympics.
RICHARD GLOVER, HOST: Richard Glover with you on Drive. I hope you're having a good Monday afternoon. 28 to 6 is the time. With us for the Monday Political Forum, Tanya Plibersek, Federal Shadow Minister for Education and Women, Labor Member for Sydney of course - for the seat of Sydney. Dr Joe McGirr is a GP but he's also the Independent New South Wales MP for Wagga Wagga, and Kate Carnell, the former Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman as well. Tanya, Joe, and Kate, welcome. Welcome everyone.
KATE CARNELL, FORMER AUSTRALIAN SMALL BUSINESS AND FAMILY ENTERPRISE OMBUDSMAN: Thanks very much, Richard.
TANYA PLIBERSEK, SHADOW MINISTER FOR EDUCATION, SHADOW MINISTER FOR WOMEN: It's great to be with you.
DR JOE McGIRR, MEMBER FOR WAGGA WAGGA: Thanks Richard.
GLOVER: I've got a quorum, I can hear. Now the New South Wales Premier says she argued her little heart out asking other states to urgently send more supplies of the Pfizer vaccine to New South Wales but got nowhere. Meanwhile, the Victorian Government has taken to emphasising its current cases are all linked to what it calls 'the New South Wales incursions'. Is Australia's federated system in danger of being damaged permanently by these tensions over COVID? And how do we get back the love, Tanya Plibersek?
PLIBERSEK: *audio cuts in* ...states, maybe someone who had bought the vaccine - or was in charge of making sure that every state and territory got the vaccine it needed. I am a bit frustrated that the Prime Minister isn't taking a leadership role here. It is the Federal government that has made these contracts with companies. It is the Federal government who has set up this system. I feel a bit sorry for Gladys Berejiklian - having to go and argue with other state leaders about getting a fair share for New South Wales at a really difficult time for our state.
GLOVER: I mean, obviously we'd be better off if we had proper supplies of Pfizer vaccine nonetheless, given that that's not the situation, given that it is limited, should it come to the hot spots? Is that it in the national interest in the end?
PLIBERSEK: I think the Premier is right in saying that a great number of the people who have come into Australia from overseas have come through New South Wales *audio cuts out*
GLOVER: Tanya's line is breaking up a little bit. Let me try to get Tanya back on a better line. Meanwhile, I'll go to Dr Joe McGirr, see if we can do better with him, line speaking. Joe, good afternoon again.
McGIRR: G'day Richard, can you hear me okay?
GLOVER: We've got you loud and clear. With your medical hat on, as well as your political hat on, what do you make of this argument that New South Wales = would it be in the national interest to try to suppress this outbreak?
MCGIRR: I think it's a very strong argument actually. I think we're currently struggling in Sydney to get this under control. The numbers have sort of plateaued, but they aren't certainly turning. And I think the Premier has a strong argument. I'd certainly back her on that. Look, as for the federation, Richard, how do we get back the love? Well, I'm not sure that we've lost the love. I mean, isn't this what families do? Squabble, fight?
GLOVER: This is a very bad Christmas Day, though, isn't it?
McGIRR: Sure, sure. But we've actually, as a country, we've done it remarkably well still, and part of that is because we have had this tension. Someone puts an idea up and someone knocks it down, and there is a robust discussion, and after about 24 hours we move on and we get on and do it. So generally speaking, I think the federation's actually worked okay, it hasn't been perfect but it has allowed us to quarantine areas of it state by state. And so I wouldn't say that it's broken, but look, I do think the Premier is right - I think having more supply of the vaccine particularly in parts of Sydney would be very helpful.
GLOVER: I mean, the other solution, of course, is for people of all ages to accept the AstraZeneca - which we have in spades. Dr Kerry Chant really looked down the barrel of the camera today and and said urgently, 'all people, all ages, get vaccinated and get vaccinated with whichever vaccine is available. They're both really good'. Do you go along with that?
McGIRR: Yeah, I do actually. In Sydney, I do. I think that the situation in Sydney has reached a point where if more people were vaccinated - including with AstraZeneca - we would certainly get on top of it sooner and we'd save lives. So I think she's right about that.
GLOVER: Kate Carnell, former Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman is with us as well. Kate Carnell, am I overstating it to say that it seems that this is done real damage to our Federation and the way that we talk about each other in this country?
CARNELL: Look Richard, the thing that's a problem here is that we've got a pandemic, and we've got to work together in this situation. Now, Premiers and Chief Ministers have always fought for the interests of their own states or territories. You know, the old adage, you never want to put anything between a Premier and a pot of gold? They've always argued to have more for their own states or territories. That's just normal. The difference here is that people's lives are at risk, and I think it's only reasonable for more vaccine, more Pfizer, to go to New South Wales or Sydney at this point. With the view that maybe it means that Sydney will have to give up some of their Pfizer down the track a bit. We've seen that happen overseas, where some countries that have had real problems have brought forward their Pfizer deliveries with the view that they'd pay them back over time. I think there's ways that we can sort this out. But one thing that we've got to stop doing is stop political blame, because this isn't a political issue at all. Nobody could have could have foretold the issues with Pfizer. No one could have foretold what was going to happen with the Queensland vaccine. So the reality is that sometimes things don't go to plan during pandemics in fact, probably they never go to plan during pandemics, and we just go to pull together on it.
GLOVER: I get the feeling sometimes looking at things like Twitter - which may not be the best thing to do. But I sometimes feel that Victorians believe that when they were having their terrible, terrible lock down, that Sydneysiders weren't sympathetic, and they may have got that view from things that were said by our Premier. I don't know. They certainly might have got that view from the all that 'Dictator Dan' talk from the Murdoch press, but it would be a terrible thing if they really thought that most Individual Sydneysiders had anything other than just enormous care and concern and love for people in Melbourne when they were suffering.
CARNELL: Look, absolutely. And as the former Small Business Ombudsman, the small businesses that are hurting in Sydney now, the same issues are to be fair, still happening in Melbourne and Victoria from shutdowns at the moment. You know, these are people. We desperately need to open up the economy and we're not going to be able to do that unless we can get immunisation happening at a much, much faster rate than we've got. Remember Victoria's up to shutdown five at the moment. It's certainly true that Sydney is in a worse position but Melbourne's not in a great position either at the moment. There's an awful lot of small businesses, and people generally, that are working from home or not working at all. So nobody's in a great position at the moment.
GLOVER: There's a lot of pain to go around. Tanya Plibersek is back with us. Tanya, we are talking about the vaccine rollout. Does the fact that the Prime Minister made a form of apology last week, is that a good thing? Does that indicate that that the mood around this has shifted?
PLIBERSEK: I guess, as the teens would say, 'sorry, not sorry'. I'm frustrated that we have been talking for more than a year about the fact we should have had more deals with more companies to get more jobs in people's arms, and it really shouldn't take a barrage of questions from an FM radio station to get the Prime Minister to realise that people are frustrated and angry. We've got 14 million Australians staying at home under lockdown because we haven't got the same vaccine rollout rates as comparable countries. We're 13 per cent fully vaccinated. And have a look at the US, have a look at the UK, European countries are doing much better than we're doing. It is so disappointing.
GLOVER: Joe McGirr, what's it like in the surgery? Has it been - because people keep on saying 'go and get your doctor's advice or maybe even change if you've got a second appointment booked try to move it forward' - it must be just hell on the phones?
McGIRR: Look Richard, being in a regional area, my experience is different and I'm not currently in a practice where I'm seeing patients so I, you know, I talk to my colleagues and I think people are, look yeah I think it has been very busy and I think people are seeking advice from their doctors but I think that the majority of the population want advice. They are understandably nervous about the vaccines but I think increasing numbers of people are recognising that they have to get the vaccine. There's been a lot of media about it that I think has spooked people considerably and the fact that we haven't had cases of the COVID here has also meant people have said, 'well what's the problem? Why can't I just wait 'til the Pfizer comes?' But the situation in Sydney now is such that I would imagine people are beginning to say, 'right I've got to get this vaccine', and certainly younger people now in particular are saying, 'look, we need to do this.'
GLOVER: Yeah, that's right, because they can see with their own eyes what's happening in terms of the death rates, and in terms of the people on ventilators and all of that. Tanya Plibersek is with us, so is Dr Joe McGirr, and so is Kate Carnell. Now the Police Commissioner today warned demonstrators were already planning another anti-lockdown protest, promising that police would respond vigorously if that goes ahead. How should authorities respond to such protests? Do we need bigger fines or are there other ways to discourage the spread of anti-vaccination propaganda, the conspiracy theories and of course the terrible violence that we saw on Saturday. Tanya Plibersek?
PLIBERSEK: Well, thank you first of all to all the people who didn't go to the protest. None of us particularly like the lockdowns, but going to protest for your right to do what? To get sick yourself? To make your grandma sick? To extend the lockdowns because you attended a super spreader event and people have taken COVID-19 home to their families? It was one of the dumbest protests I've seen and thanks to the people who didn't go, but also thanks to those 10,000 people who have contacted the police with information about people who did go. I mean, how dumb do you have to be, first of all to go to the thing, and then to put on your own social media photographic or video evidence of the fact that you've broken the law? I'm glad that the Police are going after them.
GLOVER: And yeah, big fines. Well they say that they've got a strike force which is going to investigate the hell out of this. Do we need bigger fines? I mean, what else can we do Tanya to stop it happening again?
PLIBERSEK: Well, I'm not sure. Look happy to have conversations about bigger fines, but really what this requires is ordinary people talking to any friend they've got, any relative they've got, who's gone or expressed support for this, and trying to talk some sense into them. This really is the importation of the QAnon/Trump kind of madness to Australia. This, you know, 'the government's in some conspiracy with Bill Gates and 5G to vaccinate you into submission'. Like it is mad stuff and people - they're not going to listen to me reassuring them that it's not a conspiracy, they need sensible people in their own families, in their own workplaces, in their own communities saying 'please think about my health, if you don't care about your own health, please think about me and the people around you and don't risk our health and a longer lockdown by this irresponsible behaviour.'
GLOVER: That's right, the irony of protesting for a shorter lockdown, through actions that will cause a longer lockdown. Kate Carnell, what do we do about this, to make sure that doesn't happen again?
CARNELL: Look, I would go with bigger fines. I think these are strong, I agree with Tanya as well that these are just stupid, dumb protests. But if they're planning another one, which we hear they are, I think the only thing we can really do is come down heavily on them where it hurts, possibly hip pocket. There's not anything else we can do. I mean people do have the right to protest but they don't have the right to break health requirements and to do what they did with no masks and so on. So I don't think we can stop conspiracy theorists. I don't think we can stop social media, all of those things. But it's great, as Tanya said, that all of those people have got in touch with the Police and blown the whistle on people who were involved in those marches. Now let's come down with big fines that really hurt because it's not fair, is it? It's not fair to the rest of the community, but gee whizz, is not fair to the Police either. I feel awfully sorry for the Police having to go out and manage these sort of really dumb protests.
GLOVER: Not to mention for Trojan the horse, which was just, you know, one of the most sickening things of the whole business. Joe McGirr, it is pleasing to see all those people contacting Police and in a way it was the community saying out loud how disgusted they were, to use the Premier's word. What can we do to try to stop the importation of this, this is this American madness?
McGIRR: Well, I actually think it heartening that the vast majority of people are just getting on with it. And certainly down here in Wagga, I was out on the weekend with my mask, distanced and so on, and people are just calmly doing the right thing. The dilemma we've got is that the more we demonise these people and the more we talk about them, for the people that are anxious, it makes them more anxious, puts them into a corner. For the people wanting attention, they just get the attention. And for the media outlets that promote this, it just gives them what they want which is eyeballs. And so demonising them and going over the top is a problem, but you can't, of course, ignore it because they just keep going until they get attention. And I think Tanya's nailed it, we've just got to calmly restate the facts clearly, good scientific evidence, talk to those near to us, talk calmly to people, respect them and just get on with it. Yes fines might be part of that but at the end of the day, not making too much of a fuss about them but sticking calmly to what are the facts and supporting the vast majority of the community, I think that's the way we got to go.
GLOVER: Yeah maybe it's up to us to, if we know anyone to speak to them, as Joe says, with respect, but with the facts. It's currently at 12 minutes to 6 here on ABC Radio Sydney. Tanya Plibersek, Dr Joe McGirr and Kate Carnell are here. Now, it now seems clear that the lockdown has some way to go with an especially tough impact on some of Sydney's most economically disadvantaged suburbs. Is there a case for the return of JobKeeper and are there other ways which in which people can be supported through this, you know, above the Federal Government's current $600 disaster payment. Tanya Plibersek?
PLIBERSEK: Absolutely, we shouldn't have got rid of JobKeeper. I mean, we shouldn't have had it for everyone, all the time, the whole time, but it worked. It worked to keep people in work, attached to their employers and we should have known that if there was a risk of another outbreak given our low vaccination rates that we might need JobKeeper again. And the Government's got all these hotchpotch of little programs and people don't quite know whether they're eligible for them or not. We should have stuck with the one that worked, that people were familiar with, and if those companies that had done really well and got JobKeeper anyway, the companies that that qualified on a technicality and got millions of dollars of JobKeeper but made record profits anyway, if they paid back some of their money, maybe we could use that to support businesses in my electorate that barely made it through the last lockdown, particularly in the CBD, and are now facing closure. Maybe we could use it to help the people who have missed out this time on a technicality that they might get a few dollars in AusStudy or something, but they've completely lost their job in retail, completely lost their job in hospitality, and they're really struggling. People need help now, they don't need - we've now had three iterations of support from the Federal Government. Let's just go back to the one that worked, the one that people are familiar with.
GLOVER: I mean they argue that this actually is more flexible that you can have: okay suddenly South Australia's got a two-week lockdown, quick people can get the disaster payment there, then that ends and the problem move somewhere else and we can move the disaster payment somewhere else. So they say it is flexible short term for what is going to be these rolling lockdowns.
PLIBERSEK: It's just confusing. It's confusing to businesses. It's confusing for people who don't know whether they're eligible or not. And I mean, I absolutely agree that this needs to be targeted, it needs to be temporary, it needs to be where the lockdowns are hurting. I'm not talking about blanket JobKeeper forever, but I can tell you that the people in Sydney, in my electorate, in many other parts of Sydney right now, don't know whether they will still have a business in a week or two or three’s time. And you've got people who do not know how they're going to pay the rent. It is desperate. It is urgent.
GLOVER: And hard to know how long it's going to go on for. Kate Carnell, do we need to bring JobKeeper back? I mean it was it was one of those programs which people on all sides of politics said 'that's a good idea'.
CARNELL: Look, Richard it is a good idea. The problem with it, the problem with bringing it back is that JobKeeper worked because it was right across the board for the whole of Australia. It was run by the ATO and it was based upon single touch payroll. So a national approach. The ATO had information about people, like it gets payments out tp people, but they would really struggle to use the same methodology where it's not everybody. or where you've got a business that's got people, employees say in southwestern Sydney, but other people in the Southern Highlands. Some that have been affected by the closure, some that haven't. That's where the complexity comes with using JobKeeper in the form it was last year. I think it's really important to remember that although there's the $600 and that's really important, there are some quite significant payments to businesses to keep staff on. And that's up to, I think it's up to 40% of your wage bill up to $15,000 dollars a week. You know, there's some quite significant payments to business, to encourage them, to keep their staff on, and to keep paying their staff.
GLOVER: One of the complexities of it, of course, as an individual, you go to mygov the federal outfit, but if you're a business you go to Services New South Wales?
CARNELL: Look, that's absolutely right. But then there's a whole lot of industry associations in Chambers of Commerce, COSBOA, a whole lot of organisations that are really giving some great advice to small businesses as well on what's available and what isn't. And it's really important for small businesses to really get up to speed on what they can get. Because it's true that it is a bit complex, there's payments coming from the federal government, quite significant payments, and then there's payments from state government as well. But right at the moment, the Federal Government is making quite a lot of money available to small businesses to to encourage them, they will only get the payments if they keep their staff on and that was the whole point of JobKeeper as well.
GLOVER: Alright, so yeah. Look into it and take it up if you're if you're eligible. Kate Carnell is with us, former Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman, Dr. Joe McGirr Independent New South Wales MP for Wagga Wagga and Tanya Plibersek, the Federal Shadow Minister for Education and Women. She represents the Labor seat of Sydney. Joe McGirr do we need bring back JobKeeper?
McGIRR: Well look, I actually think that we should bring back JobKeeper. It worked before, it calms people and and it stops the incessant calls to reopen the economy. You pointed out earlier that the other forms of assistance are more suited to a short, to lock downs that suddenly come on. The problem we've got in New South Wales is we don't have a short shutdown, a short lockdown. This is actually going to go on now for weeks. And in fact, when we look back in retrospect the actions taken, I think, were too slow. And the modelling, you talk to the epidemiologists, we really had the case numbers to get a harder lockdown earlier to be honest. We haven't got that, this is going to run on for weeks, I think people are going to get more and more anxious. I suspect part of the reason that the other confusing measures work in a smaller lockdown, is some people use them and some people don't. This is going to go on for a while, that's what worries me. And I have to say I support Tanya on this. I think bringing back the JobKeeper payment, I think it would relieve a lot of anxiety for businesses, and that's an important component of managing this situation. Because it's the anxiety that leads to the sort of protests that we've seen, by some people anyway, and it leads to a lot of social disruption. So an important part of getting messages through is to make sure people aren't anxious.
GLOVER: To turn the temperature down as much as possible, five to 6 is the time. Now, some say the Olympics shouldn't be held, but in lockdown Sydney it's at least providing some thrilling moments. What moments have you enjoyed most so far Tanya Plibersek?
PLIBERSEK: Oh well, I just think the women in the pool - they're just killing aren't they? It's been really good to see the success of our swimmers. I'm very much looking forward to the Matildas' game tomorrow night against the US, that's going to be a real nail-biter. And I've got to say I just loved seeing Naomi Osaka light the big Olympic cauldron. I thought that was an uplifting moment.
GLOVER: Kate Carnell, what for you?
CARNELL: Oh look, I loved seeing Ariarne Titmus' coach cry. I mean he was obviously just so overcome by seeing her win that gold medal and oh look anyone who watched that would have had goosebumps because I certainly did. But it was wonderful to see a coach, and coaches put in I think probably as much as the athletes in lots of ways, really just be so, so overcome with emotion.
GLOVER: It was a brilliant to see wasn't it? And Joe McGirr, what have you enjoyed most so far?
McGIRR: Well I have to say, I haven't had a chance to look at a whole lot of the Olympics. I have to say it was thrilling to see the relay team, the girls relay team win. But actually, for me, my heart went out to Ash Barty a bit actually, thought that was the ups and downs of fame and success. And I have to say, I saw a little bit of the opening ceremony, I wouldn't call it a highlight, but boy what an image of the times. I mean, such a mix of emotions. Obviously athletes happy to be there representing their countries, an empty stadium, masked, distanced it was - boy, if ever there was a kind of image of the times we're going through, that really struck me.
GLOVER: That's right and the symbol, talking about images and I know they changed the rules slightly about this, but for a while anyway, people on the stadium with their gold medals with masks on,, it was very sad, wasn't it?
MCGIRR: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
GLOVER: Sign of the time,s as Joe says. Hey we're out of time but thank you very much - to Tanya Plibersek, thanks Tanya.
PLIBERSEK: Thank you.
GLOVER: To Joe McGirr in Wagga.
MCGIRR: Thanks Richard
GLOVER: And to Kate Carnell, thank you so much.
CARNELL: Thanks Richard.
ENDS
